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Post by misterbrow on Jun 17, 2014 14:54:30 GMT -5
We have security comments in numerous threads. We should probably do something more constructive than complain, provide anecdotal evidence, and name 300 bands to book before Thanksgiving. Since we got the survey, I am optimistic that our voice might get heard. If we can put together something we can mail it off more official. As the discussion moves I'll edit the suggestions.
I think we can agree:
- We want to feel safe (No needles, glass, nitrous, weapons, verbal or physical violence, thefts, etc...)
- In order to achieve this we must sacrifice some liberty (Bag searches, pat downs, video beamed to the internet)
- Security plays a huge role in the festival experience and costs money
Questions:
1. Have you been to a fest with ideal security? (Fest? Company?) What did that mean exactly?
2. What is appropriate searching? (Citations?)
3. What methods can be employed?
Suggestions:
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Post by misterbrow on Jun 17, 2014 15:33:44 GMT -5
From legalzoom
When Can the Police Stop and Frisk You on the Street?
BEVERLY RICE - JUL 2007
Every American citizen has the constitutional right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. It's the reason tough talking TV characters always snap "where's your warrant?" when police start snooping around. Unfortunately, the police don't always need a warrant. In fact, under the stop and frisk exception, the police can stop you on the street and pat you down for anything illegal...as long as they have suspicion. So how exactly does stop and frisk work? And just when can the police use it?
A Little Back Story
Stop and frisk has been an effective tool for police since the 1968 case Terry v. Ohio, when the Supreme Court ruled in favor of it. The court agreed with the police that officers face uncertain and dangerous situations on the streets—circumstances that can potentially threaten both law enforcement officers and the public. For this reason, police officers need a set of flexible responses that allow them to react based on the information they possess. Thus, distinctions should be made between a stop and an arrest (or seizure of a person), and between a frisk and a search.
Under the Terry ruling, a police officer may stop and detain a person based on reasonable suspicion. And, if the police reasonably suspect the person is armed and dangerous, they may also frisk him or her for weapons.
What exactly is Reasonable Suspicion?
Reasonable suspicion is defined by a set of factual circumstances that would lead a reasonable police officer to believe criminal activity is occurring. This is different from the probable cause (what a reasonable person would believe) required for an arrest, search, and seizure. If the stop and frisk gives rise to probable cause to believe the detainee has committed a crime, then the police officer should have the power to make a formal arrest and conduct a search of the person.
What is a Stop?
What constitutes a stop and frisk? Can one be stopped and not frisked? Or does one action always follow another? A stop is a seizure of a person. There are two types of stops: (1.) a show of force and (2.) a show of authority. With a show of force, an officer must physically lay hands on the person with the intent of detaining them. In a show of authority, the officer's look, demeanor, and display of authority persuades a person to submit to authority. The key element in this type of stop is that the individual must submit to the show of authority, believe they have been seized, and feel compelled to cooperate.
A Justified Stop
A stop is justified if the suspect is exhibiting any combination of the following behaviors:
Appears not to fit the time or place.
Matches the description on a "Wanted" flyer.
Acts strangely, or is emotional, angry, fearful, or intoxicated.
Loitering, or looking for something.
Running away or engaging in furtive movements.
Present in a crime scene area.
Present in a high-crime area (not sufficient by itself or with loitering).
What is a Justified Frisk?
A frisk is a type of search that requires a lawful stop. It involves contact or patting of the person's outer clothing to detect if a concealed weapon is being carried. The frisk doesn't necessarily always follow a stop. The law of frisk is based on the "experienced police officer" standard whereby an officer's experience makes him more equipped to read into criminal behavior than the average layperson.
The purpose of a frisk is to dispel suspicions of danger to the officer and other persons. The frisk should only be used to detect concealed weapons or contraband. If other evidence, such as a suspected drug container, can be felt under the suspect's clothing, it can be seized by the officer. This is called the "plain feel" doctrine. To pass the plain feel test, the item must have an immediately apparent character or quality of being contraband or evidence.
A frisk is justified under the following circumstances:
Concern for the safety of the officer or of others.
Suspicion the suspect is armed and dangerous.
Suspicion the suspect is about to commit a crime where a weapon is commonly used.
Officer is alone and backup has not arrived.
Number of suspects and their physical size.
Behavior, emotional state, and/or look of suspects.
Suspect gave evasive answers during the initial stop.
Time of day and/or geographical surroundings (not sufficient by themselves to justify frisk).
Too much power?
Does the ability to stop and frisk go too far? Many police departments are at odds with the public in certain neighborhoods concerning what some people deem unwarranted stops. People in high crime areas and in areas with high minority populations often complain they are stopped and questioned at a disproportionately higher rate than their counterparts in other areas of the city.
Even some patrol officers complain about an unwritten quota system that rewards officers with promotions based on the number of stop and frisks they perform that uncover drugs or guns. While officers believe the stop and frisk law is a useful crime fighting tool, they also feel the law can be overused in an effort to boost statistics. Moreover, stop and frisk may reduce crime by scaring criminals into thinking they might be stopped at any time, but it also scares law-abiding citizens. This further alienates good citizens and strains the relationship between the police and the community.
When used correctly, the stop and frisk tool benefits the police and average citizens. Curbing crime and ensuring the safety of our on-the-beat public servants, stop and frisk can help us all sleep a little more soundly - a good step in the all-American pursuit of happiness.
MrBrau says:
Being at a fest does not constitute suspicion. Someone with a joint does not make me feel in danger. The corporation can't draw a line for what contraband is OK but I don't want a meth lab in RV land or someone mainlining on the ski lifts. Acts strangely, or is emotional, angry, fearful, or intoxicated.
LOL. With the exception of angry or fearful the strange emotional people are either why I go to be that person to watch thise people. Intoxicated? 99% of us aren't driving, this is where you get intoxicated, angry drunks don't do crowd call responses like Antibalas, Franti, Anders... Pat down of outer clothing... empty your pockets and bags.
I think I like the idea of a tertiary system. Primary- The front line is happy front line people that act more like greeters at hippy Disneyland. Secondary: (The red shirts) Chill, bob to the good bass lines, but if they need to respond you know to move out of their way. Responding to medical, talking to those that get offended by turning out their pockets, stepping in if it looks like there is an altercation brewing, investigate suspicion of danger, handle pat downs of non bikini areas for individuals behaving a certain way or random so as not to disrupt the flow of the line. Third- Real PO PO, when red shirt says yo it is getting real.
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Post by misterbrow on Jul 5, 2014 17:34:15 GMT -5
Crickets out here.
I think this is a valuable topic.
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Post by hunterdrummer on Jul 8, 2014 11:19:46 GMT -5
I just think they need to be chill...
I just got back from seeing Phish at SPAC and they barely touched me.. not bottles? cool... And it was a great event.. Super chill...
I make my own personal thing with security... i have means and methods to avoid or get past...
And not just at MtnJam..
I wasn't happy how they treated my girlfriend but we've made our complaint.
Seeing Phish this weekend at Randalls Island - I expect FULL security there with all the EDM deaths last year... I hear they are looking in wallets..
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Post by misterbrow on Jul 8, 2014 21:50:49 GMT -5
I just think they need to be chill... I agree, but, can you define or elaborate on this? |
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Post by ferret on Jul 8, 2014 23:23:53 GMT -5
All I know is that after Years of following The Dead and seeing hundreds of other Concerts and Festivals.
I have learned to -
1.)Scope out the Doors BEFORE you try to go in.
2.)Learn some diversion tactics for food & Beer(cans)water and such(stuff you cant really get in trouble for)
3.)And if trying to bring in anything else,make SURE its totally secreted away no matter WHAT the level of security you think you have scoped out!
I DID think it was strange how this year they seemed REALLY focused on searching the females so well. Every time we came in I would have to wait while they looked through my Wifes purse(which was the only thing she would be carrying) and I would have the camp chair,backpack and be wearing cargo shorts with like 8 pockets yet I beat her through every time? It just doesnt make sense. So now I have another tip.
4.)Adapt on the fly!
See you all next year!
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Post by hunterdrummer on Jul 9, 2014 8:52:38 GMT -5
I just think they need to be chill... I agree, but, can you define or elaborate on this? Stop digging for a bust... Look for the dangerous stuff.. glass - knives - bad things... Protect us... Let party favors slide... |
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Post by misterbrow on Jul 9, 2014 19:20:23 GMT -5
Ferret- I agree, but, my question is how do we ask Townsquare (all promoters) to put together a security protocals where we do not have to rely on our veteran experience?
One of my favorite lines from a Radiators show from Dave: "The Radiators musical community is a great neighborhood to live in." The crowd could PARTY HARD and never a worry of anything. Barely someone even taking tickets. Truckers shows, I am generally one of the worst offenders of jumping around and invading people's space and wanting to talk to people. In general, the crowd polices itself with a hand on a stranger's shoulder and polite words. Careful selection of bands, and therefore the crowd that will attend, is huge. Professional partiers is the term I like to use.
HD- I agree.
"Stop digging for a bust...
Look for the dangerous stuff.. glass - knives - bad things... Protect us...
We are agreeing to search by attending, however, attending is not probable cause that we are doing something wrong. These are the points I bolded in the article.
"Let party favors slide..."
I have a tough time figuring out how to word this for a security company, I guess we are still waiting on NY laws to catch up.
How do you feel about:
A tertiary system.
Primary- The front line is happy front line people that act more like greeters at hippy Disneyland. Assess and handle logistics. They read a script.
Secondary: Chill, bob to the good bass lines as they are not there for the music, but if they need to respond you know to move out of their way as they are likely responding to a situation, talking to those that get offended by the primary, stepping in if it looks like there is an altercation brewing, investigate suspicion of danger, handle pat downs of non bikini areas for individuals behaving a certain way or random so as not to disrupt the flow of the line.
Third- Real PO PO, when red shirt can not deescalate the situation
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Post by ferret on Jul 9, 2014 20:42:16 GMT -5
The first time we went to California to see The Dead in like 1992 and being from the East Coast(Philly area) and used to the security here,we were amazed at the security at the Oakland Coliseum! - OAKLAND
Walking up the steps leading to the venue there was a Guy with a Megaphone telling people to take your time and be safe "we dont want any "unintentional" tripping"
Once inside the floor was General Admission and they had taped a line around the whole floor allowing like a 6-8ft lane around the outside to walk.
If you tried to stop in that lane there were "friends of the Dead" or something like that dressed in regular clothes with laminates to ID them,that would tell you kindly get inside the line or keep going. That was the extent of it!
And a side note,during the set break, people played a giant game of duck,Duck,Goose on one side of the floor and Volley Ball on the other.
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Post by misterbrow on Jul 10, 2014 9:05:10 GMT -5
I guess a question for Townsquare is, "What do (they) need for the MJ community in terms of policing ourselves in order to help them balance the security?"
I think we do a pretty job through example. The only drug I see is pot, have not seen glass bottles and I know people would say something if they did, no fights, most people that dance tell their neighbors ahead of time they may be bumping into them...
The only reason to dig for something would be to be proactive or respond to someone altering their mindstate beyond what they can handle. Maybe we need a chill out tent to direct those people to.
Anybody remember the names of the security companies we have had at MJ?
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Post by ferret on Jul 21, 2014 16:07:28 GMT -5
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Post by misterbrow on Jul 22, 2014 8:08:15 GMT -5
I have never truly understood our society's laws on these things (OK I do, it has to do with money). It is OK to drink all day and wake up hungover. But, smoke a joint, laugh, and wake up mellow is bad. Trip because it is harder to get caught, but open yourself up to not knowing how you might react or what situation you may be in several hours down the road.
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Post by misterbrow on Sept 9, 2014 16:10:58 GMT -5
I think I found our answer...
Phish
The Phish Rider is more of an attempt to educate security about their fans so they don’t get too heavy-handed with the Phish followers. “Our fans are a peaceful, intelligent group who respond to courteous requests rather than aggressive bullying."
The band also addresses those pesky security pat downs. They band doesn’t like them… at all. “The pat down should be limited to visual and very light pat down checks. It’s a 'pat-down,' NOT a search for illegal substances. There is a difference.”
Phish
The Phish Rider is more of an attempt to educate security about their fans so they don’t get too heavy-handed with the Phish followers. “Our fans are a peaceful, intelligent group who respond to courteous requests rather than aggressive bullying.”
The band also addresses those pesky security pat downs. They band doesn’t like them… at all. “The pat down should be limited to visual and very light pat down checks. It’s a ‘pat-down,’ NOT a search for illegal substances. There is a difference.”
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Post by hunterdrummer on Sept 11, 2014 14:44:25 GMT -5
Just saw Phish do their Colorado run..
We walked in each night to a VERY light patdown..
People were doing dabs with full rigs inside.. I walked in with bottles of water filled with vodka...
Place was chill as F...
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Post by sparkdog on Sept 12, 2014 15:41:50 GMT -5
Well, it IS Colorado...  I had the same experience and attribute it to the band & venue. While Red Rocks is also very lax, security checks getting in are way more thorough than they were at Dick's. But overall it's very relaxed out here. Just returned from Lockn' where it was also pretty light in terms of security. The car check on arrival entailed someone looking in the back, seeing I had four cinder blocks (to secure the Ez-up) and asking "You planning on using those to sink a body?" The rest was a five minute conversation about where I got my t-shirt. |
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